RW:       Let’s meet Kaine, who is Kaine Agary?

AGARY:                Wao… eem… where do I start… I am a young woman from the Niger delta, I have a background              in Policy – Public policy, I am also a Lawyer… em …  and I have an interest in… you know… social     and Economic Development, and that’s how I got into Writing.


RW:       Waoo… that’s quite great… That’s good enough for us for now… Did you just set out to be a        writer, or did it come along the way?

AGARY:                It came along the way…. em… it started, I think it started …. I was doing a lot of research              writing,                 and also for my degree In public policy, I had to do a lot of writing, and so I started out                  doing more of academic writing, and the fiction writing was almost… almost out of necessity in a           way… I think…em… because I felt that a lot of things that I was writing for academic research        institutes were important things to share with a larger population, and I felt that writing fiction               would be one way that I could convey those messages, so that’s how my fiction work came            about…


RW:       In essence you are trying to tell us that writing fiction helps in… em… broadening one’s horizon,                and bringing to the fore, very critical issues….


AGARY:                Definitely! I mean… I… Yes, I… I always used to use em… example of …. I don’t know if people      know Michael Moore, Fahreinheits – he is a documentary film maker, and he did the documentarycalled Fahreinheits 9/11. And Farhreinheits 9/11 covered the…. you know…. the             Hamstrings, the global hamstring. And it was fine… and… you know, he’s a political figure… so…            there were someaudiences that that documentary didn’t reach. But then, around the same time, a block-buster Hollywood movie came out, calledem… Lord of War, I think it was called, with      Nicolas Cage. And it covered certain subjects… and so, I believe that… em…. you know… there    have to be different avenuesfor reaching different audiences. So, the academics who you             would reach with your academic works,                and then the…the other audiences who you have to find other ways to reach. And then, maybe that is fiction writing, maybe that is film, whatever it is,          em… we have to find different ways of passing on the messages that we want to pass on. So,                 while fiction and creative works entertain, em…                 sometimes you can educate using those               avenues, and so that was em…that was the push for me to write my book. Also, em.. I think… I    think… er… reading Ken SaroWiwa’s “A Month and a Day” also,          er… Influenced me to try and     write fiction. because, he… he says somewhere, I think in the beginning    of the book, about          discovering his talent to write, and deciding to use it as a voice for his people and the         struggle of his people. And so, that inspired me to use all of the information I have got, as a        researcher, and as a research writer, and put it into fiction.


RW:        hmmm, that’s good. So, that’s to mean that for you, writing is what really comes to you as a       matter of course. And some people are of the opinion that being creative, is something you are   born with, it’s not something that you can learn, but from your experience now, it’s about skills,                    it’s about having the Knowledge, it’s also about knowing what to write and how to write it.


AGARY: Em…. I think… well, I don’t know about being a natural born-writer, but I come from a family of,               (and      a lot of us do) I come from a Family of great Storytellers. you know… when we are all               around, em… during the holidays, we would tell stories and… my grandmother talked a lot about her childhood    days, and history, and recounting information. So, a lot of us are good       storytellers, it’s just now, putting it in a different form, which is writing… which is, you        know…                 writing is just storytelling, finding the story you want to tell and making it interesting for                 whoever is going to read it. So, the whole of my formal training is more                 technical,the      storytelling part is… you know, you… you could see in it, it     was, for me… it’s just., you        know…. for me, it’s just telling story. All the  things, all the fiction I’ve              written, it’s just                telling story. Emm… You know… as we say in Potharcourt, just gisting with your       friends, but it’s a longer gist in writing.


RW:        Exactly…well, as… as a scholar once said, Africans are natural story tellers.


AGARY: Yes, I agree!


RW:        Now, let’s come to the issue of gender. Ern… what’s your view of the Gender discourse in Africa,            is it robust enough?


AGARY: Errm… I don’t think so, but I think it’s getting there, I think there is a lot of effort in… you know…               in bringing out issues to the fore, and having the discussions that need to be had about gender       and about our place in the society, about the opportunities that women are given or denied.             Ermm… so, even though I don’t think we are where we want to be, I think there is a        consciousness, eermmm…. There is a consciousness and there is discussion going on.                 Unfortunately, (especially in Nigeria) we seem to take two steps forward, two steps backwards,              three steps ‘part,     you know…. we have administrations that have been very gender            forward, especially in their                 appointments and in the participation of women, in governance                              and in policy. And then you have                 other administrations who practically just ignore…          ignore… erm… ignore all of that. But it’s not a     discussion only for African women. You see it….      here in America even, you know… especially, with this    presidential round of elections that have          just come up, you heard the last presidential hope for the            democratic party has just                 dropped out – the last female has just dropped out – Elizabeth Warren. And       so, the discussion, it’s everywhere. You know… people do side-by-side pictures of Obama’s cabinet                and Trump’s cabinet, and you find a lot more women in Obama’s cabinet than you find in       Trump’s cabinet. So, it’s… it’s a discussion everywhere, it’s (of course) more pronounced in Africa,    because we haven’t made enough (should I say) legislative progress, as were being made in some                 other places, but it’s … it’s… I think it’s a global discussion….


RW:        But, did you set out, to…. errm… you know, to address this issue when you wrote your popular                 text, Yellow-Yellow? Did you set to write a gender-based work?

AGARY: Yes! Yes, definitely.At the time, when I was doing research in the Niger Delta, erm… a lot of the media coverage of the Niger Delta problems were centered on the men – the Niger Delta                     Militants. The Violence – it was all about the men. But there was very little talk about the        impacts it was having on the women in the Niger Delta. Erm…. the women were bearing the              brunt of the violence; erm… the destruction of the social order… there were things that were                 happening to women that nobody was talking about. So, it was important for me…erm….to at                 least document some of that… and that was one of my objectives writing Yellow-Yellow.         Because, you know, … I would meet people who weren’t from the Niger Delta, and the lens was         focused on the militant boys and the men and what was happening to the men, and there were very little coverage on the women, and what the women were going through…


RW:     Hmmm… Yea, Yea…Quite interesting…and that also takes me to the issue of the minorities. That              particular text has something to do with the minority. The same thing… (that is, in Nigeria), you     earlier-on talked about the American election ongoing and all that… still, we don’t have a     conscious effort of people bringing in the issue of minorities. What do you think that would do       for the African… the issues around the Africans and the troubles we’re having here… in                relations to the international….


AGARY: So, are you talking about Minorities in Nigeria?


RW:       Minorities… In the world!

AGARY: The whole thing about Minorities anywhere, is power. You know, it’s always a power play – he                 who has the power dictates what happens. And usually the majority has the power, so they                 put their people in place, they are unaware of the issues or the challenges of the minorities, and    for the most part, don’t really care what those issues and challenges are because they don’t           affect them. And they    don’t care to make any changes because it’s not directly their issues …     it’s always a power play. Who   is in power sets the tone.So, If the Majority is in power, then       they set the tone for what’s happening          with the minority. Weather, you are… it could be               economic, it could be social, it could be ethnic, it’s always a power play. The Majority has      the power and the minority is just struggling for existence, it’s                 almost an existential fightfor     the minority everywhere, you know… everything – weather laws are       passed or… it all        depends on the                 majority and what the majority wants.


RW:        Hmm… hmm…And as women, we are always at the other side, in the minority…


AGARY:                Yea! Especially… especially, and which is why you know…… In early 99, 2000, when there was all                 these talk about ok; the new democracy, a lot of the research I did was almost about the             women’s participation in politics. … because, if we are not in it, then our needs are not being          talked   about or addressed. It is just the men who are making policy, who are deciding what       happens. They don’t know the struggles of the woman; they can’t speak for the women. So,       without women’s participation, you can’t have broad policy, you can‘t have policy that       makes t                the kind of change that                 we need in the society to elevate the status of the woman.


RW:        That brings me to this issue of erm….. woman …the attitude of women, (especially in the larger                gender                 discourse). Today, in contemporary times, you notice that young women are not really                 so interested in holding their own… in being in the fore front of the developmental issues            and all that,        except for a few elites. Whereas, in the past, the generation of our fore              mothers, the Professor Bolanle Awe, of this world, and they were really out there in the    public space… saying their mind, letting their hearts out, and all that, and participating    effectively – but today, having the influence of postmodernism (I don‘t know) so, I want       to ask,   what’s your take on this postfeminist ideals… ideas, and postmodernism, as it‘s affecting               the gender discourse in                contemporary time.


AGARY: Erm…I think… to me I think it’s a mix of issues, erm…. for one, the general despondency across   the board, whether it’s (for woman) you know gender issues, or economic issues, there’s just a         general despondency, like everyone has thrown their hands in the air like “what can we do?         We’ve been saying all of these for so long, nothing changes, so you just go with the flow…”                 erm… Secondly, I also think religion plays a role in the expectations of women. You know, your “    the man is the head of the house” and if you are too vocal… you know….you have women at both           sides, both Christian and Moslems, and when they are very vocal (especially in the social media)      you see comments … “I’m sure   this one is not married”…. “go and cook for your husband…”               things like that… I think it’s just a whole                mix of things It’s a general despondency of where         societies in Nigeria now, and where erm…you     know, in some ways, there is no rhyme or   rhythm to the way things happen. I think back in… you know… let’s say 40 years ago, people     could move ahead, could get their points across on merit. You            could get your platform on          merit. If you had something to say, people would listen to you. But right now, there’s so       many    things that play, that cloud the voices of people who have something to say; there’s politics,            there’s ethnicity, there is religion, there are all kinds of things – issues that have                now befuddle    erm… the discourse. So, it makes it difficult. So, I don’t think there’s one particular thing that has                 erm..affected the gender discourse in Nigeria, I think it’s a whole mix of                different things that is   (sic) going on.


RW:       Do you think there’s a way we can … you know… bring it down to a … well… a general… to the    general public to be focused? Erm.. In the US for example, the …er… #METOO is        still trending,      and people are riding on that to bring to the fore the gender issues, the         abuse, and all the rest   of them. It seems that it’s expanding the scope of the gender                 discourse. So, it’s like … women               are having better opportunities, better platforms, to have their say … but that seems not to be      the case in Africa …


AGARY: It takes action though, it takes action. Yes, there is a movement. But, there is also been a lot       actions because a lot of persons are taking things to the court… to get, to get judgments, to get    pronouncements about the state of things. So, beyond the movement, there’s supposed to be          action, which is something that we generally don’t do in Nigeria. We do a lot of talk but we don‘t                challenge the very few things that we challenge in the court. A very few years ago… less than              5years ago, erm… a woman took the inheritance laws of the Ibos to the court, and it went all the              way to the supreme court, where the supreme court said “No you can’t discriminate against the         female children in distribution of property”. So, it takes action, and that’s where we don’t…  It’s     either we don‘t trust the court process is too long, or whatever it is,. We don’t go beyond the                advocacy to taking action. Yes, we talk about it a lot. There is a lot of discussions, a lot of   seminars…, but we need people who will take actions and go to the court and say, Ok, you decide                 and tell us… erm… how the law acts in this situation, and so we know, going from now on; this what can happen. And once the court decides, it’s a threat. Everybody else is now on notice that    the court as decided this, and this action is not acceptable.  But, if we just talk about it, and we                        just… you know… nothing happens. That’s my belief.


RW:       Maybe we need more writeups, more writers like you to talk more about such issues. And that                brings me to the issue of publishing. You are in the field of publishing now…


AGARY:                I was…


RW:       Really? You were? So, what are you doing now?


AGARY:  I’m a lawyer.


RW:       I know…Are you back fully into the legal business?


AGARY:                Yes, Yes. I still write, but I’m not in the business of publishing anymore.

RW:        Waoo…Cos I was going to ask you what influenced your interest in… (and maybe I should still     ask) what influenced your interest in publishing in the first place?


AGARY:                Erm… frustration with the publishers at a time… I felt I was getting the runaround from a couple               of publishers, and erm… yea… I was just, I wasn’t getting… I was getting the runaround from a      couple of people who said they were interested in the Story; they were interested I doing the            book… but then, there was no action – one year later, two years later nothing was happening, so              I decided; well, let me do this by myself. And then there were…I at a time also, remember also, it        was one of the big publishers at the time – who said to me; books don’t sell, books don’t sell in     Nigeria, know, unless it was a text book, nobody is going to be buying this book. And so,             I thought, Ok… well, why not just gamble on myself and see how it goes? And so, I did the whole   process from getting an editor, typesetting the book, doing everything that I needed to do step                by step on my own, to get it published.


RW:        … a dis-service to the women, especially young women, who probably would have been looking              up to you, at least to join your publishing outfit to get themselves published.


AGARY:                There is (sic) so many publishing houses now, It’s not the same landscape as it was in 2006,2007…


RW:       There is still the gender issue, there is still the gender issue…

AGARY:                You think so?

RW:       I know so.

AGARY:                It’s a hard business though, it’s a very hard business to do in Nigeria. And I just, I got tired…       Because, you know… if you are doing everything from concept to market. Whereas in more            developed market, the people who are in different areas of the chain, from concept, then you           hand it over to distributor, and the distributor takes care of all the logistic of getting it around…         around to the different stores, getting your money back…. Getting you money back, is… yea, –                getting the return on sales was a huge..hugewahala. So… Our distribution channels are very…                 erm… I was working on something, unfortunately by the time I got to that point, I had run out of             steam, I had run out of resources, so I couldn’t capitalize on it as much as I wanted to. But I still           think, (I always say to people) I still think it’s a model that can work – n which was the           partnership that we had with the post office – the Nigerian Postal Service. Because, the post            office has two things that no other distributor has; they have ware-housing and they have                 transport. They are in the business of transporting things around. They have those two things…               and one of the places where I got a lot of sales from, through the post-office  I never would have    dreamt                 that I’ll get sales from them – it was a place in Rivers State called “Eleme”, I mean, that    was not a place I ordinarily would even go to look for book shop to sell my books in, but through   the post office, we got sales from there. So, if… you know, it came very late in the process, it               came very late when I had… I was just tired of everything, but I think it’s … because, it’s                 beneficial to the post office and it’s beneficial to the book- sellers as well, because the post        office    gets their cuts as a distributor, and the book seller gets their money. So, I think that’s         a platform that could work if someone capitalizes on it, but you know… logistics for books is a   challenge.


RW:       Let’s hope that someone could break the odd and come out with something soon.

This is Yellow-Yellow. In this text, we are confronted with female characters who are strong,       independent and who are able to hold their own in the patriarchal world. What informed the         creation of theses female characters?


AGARY:                A lot of the characters based on the women that I grew up around in Portharcourt. A lot of the                 women I grew up around were very strong women, my grandmother was one, and my mother is             avery strong woman. So, I grew up around lot of very…very independent, strong-willed women.           So, that… and even just around the neighborhood, if you are in Portharcourt, you’d hear about                the things that women were doing. Across from my house where I grew up, there was a woman     who worked in the Customs. And this was in the late 70s and early 80s, she was the first woman I   saw riding a motor bike. She used to ride a motorbike to work, that was how she went to work      she was in Customs, she was a huge woman. She always had problems with public         transportations, so she decided, “I’m not dealing with this”,bought herself a motorcycle and she              would ride around the town on her motorbike. So, I grew up around a lot of strong women, who     carried their homes, where some of them were married … you know …  very well respected by         their husbands, you know … mutual respect. So yea, that was what I saw, and then, I almost felt            at a time, that we were losing… some of that  … independence… you know, the cultural                 structure was changing a bit.


 RW:      So, erm… In contemporary times now, would you say that female discrimination and gender      equality are still our concern? Have we gone so far, now in to the gender struggle that … things                         are… that we can take things for granted?

AGARY:No, I don’t think so, I think we’re still a long way off. I mean there are still issues that we make   light-of. Like you brought up the #metoo issue. You know, there’s still workplace discrimination, there’s still sexual harassment, you read it, you read about it every day in the papers about                students in the universities or employees in different corporate organizations, you read about people who are afraid to get pregnant when they get a job. … you know, so, we are still facing a                lot of issues and like, again I sad, when there’s no action, nothing changes. Because if you have a                 corporate organization that is challenged for unlawful termination of an employment based on                 discrimination, and they have to pay an hefty fine, or face some crazy liability for that, it will put               the other cooperate organization on check that this is not acceptable. We have laws, we have       laws that protect against these things, but until somebody take action on laws and takes the     matter to court, nothing happens., and… people get away with abuses, and people get away           with       violence, people get away with discrimination because we don’t take action. It’s either              somebody says “leave it”, or “leave it to God”, or “don‘t worry about it”, or you know… all                 kinds of… I remember in the 80s, when my mum was facing harassment in her job as a civil          servant, the late GaniFawehinmi of blessed memory, she went to him, and he took up her case. You know, just a letter from his chambers put them on notice. And they didn’t even go to court or                 get that far… just a letter from his office. This was in the early 80s about 83 or so. ‘Put him on       notice the particular person, the whole board got involved. He was either demoted or terminated    or whatever… but she took action, that’s the point I’m trying to make. You know, it’s not just     playing about things, we have to take actions.

RW:       Take action… take action… erm… the fact that we’re still talking about this, you know… right        now, does that mean that as African women, we have not benefitted at all from the idea and   the pursuits of feminism?

AGARY: I think we have. I think we have; sadly, a lot of it is on paper. Erm… You know, we have                 domesticated some international agreements… there’re some laws that have been put in place,        but still not….



RW:        No Action yet…

AGARY: Yes, no action. It’s like there is no teeth to it yet. It’s there, but it’s just lying with no… it hasn’t   shown us its teeth. Because …sometimes, with law, you have to see the law and action to see           whether it is adequate or not.  You know…it is when the law is tested that you know… ok… this           works; this is what the primers might have taught, but in actuality it doesn’t really cover all the                           possible situations that could arise or maybe the law needs to be amended in this way or that        way… but we have to challenge things, we have to challenge the walls that exist.


RW:So, maybe… from all you have said now, it’s as if contemporary female writers in Africa today            probably need to change their style of writing to at least encourage women to take action.             Because, I mean,so far, we have reached that conclusion that the major challenge that we have   as african women is that we are not taking action.


AGARY:Well, I think, not only the writers, I think, you know… unfortunately we don’t have as much         public interest litigation in Nigeria anymore… You know, the things that people like Gani             Fawehinmi did for Nigeria, I think we need more….And It takes resources I guess, and we need         women to litigate these public interests; women interest issues in the court, to get some   pronouncements about things. You have erm…you have some organizations that are    reactionary; meaning that they take up cases and provide some kind of supports, either for battered women or abused children. But we need we need more public interest litigation with              respect to women’s right and women’s issues. Of course, there’s a sought of… (what’s the word?)                 I don’t want to say disillusionment, but you know, there’s somewariness with the judiciary at the moment, and the time it takes, the uncertainty of the fairness of the judiciary and things like      that…. But never the less, I don’t think we should stop. You know, we keep pressing on. We see        that it works… it took Gani, it took Gani many years before he could even get to the point where     the court agreed that non-interested party had locos to bring such human right cases to court.


RW:       And now, that vibrant lawyers like you are (laughter) …. You know, leaving the country, so, who               do we look up to now? I mean, isn’t that the major problem with us here? I mean…The brain            drain… the fact that you know…our elites, who should know better … and … who should have          the locus standing …      to fight the struggle are leaving in droves…. What do we do about this?


AGARY: That’s a hard question

RW:       Which we need to face.

AGARY: Yes, we do need to face it… It’s a tough question because, you know… I do understand the         frustration of a lot of young professionals… I do understand, whether it’s professional frustration,                whether it’s social frustrations, whether it’s the security challenges, there’re lots of frustrations                that one faces in Nigeria

RW:       Even writers are not here anymore…

AGARY: They have to eat to survive … they have to eat to survive.  I think … you know … one of the issues           in Nigeria right now is… I described it a little more eloquently to someone recently… but, you                            know there was a time when you could advance based on your own hard work and your            motivation and … you know, based on the strength of your intellect … eem… now it happens, but    it’s more of an up-hill struggle. I mean, there was a time when if you came out of school with            your first class or your 2:1, you know where you were going to go, the employers are looking for                 you…. but now, you know, it’s not guaranteed. I read a story recently about some guys who…   some years ago, there were group of them who took an exam for scholarships, and they passed.               And it was supposed to be a guaranteed situation – if you passed you were getting the           scholarship. And new government comes (sic) into power, the whole thing is scrapped. And              luckily for them (and this is what you were complaining about) … they got scholarships from            outside …so,  of course, when they finished the scholarship they were going to stay true and loyal                 to people who funded them … you know …  So…


RW:       Well … perhaps someday… we’ll get there …


AGARY: The point is to keep …  keep   the discussion going so that we are still hearing it, we still                 understand that it’s an issue we have to deal with – we’re thinking about it in the way we vote,          we’re thinking   about it in the people we throw up for political office . It’s in our consciousness     that things need to change, and then maybe we can scrutinize more deeply the people who are           in positions of power…


RW:        I’ll love to go on and on…. There are so many questions … so so, many… and my students are     here with their question, but you know… our time is up. ‘Cos I promised 40 – 45minutes, and    we’re just 35sec. shy of 45 minutes now.


AGARY: If your time is not constrained, we could do up to like an hour, but it’s up to you…


RW:        Alright ….fine, let me go this way then… I want to talk about the issue of… the influence of          female writers. I chipped it in a little earlier on. There are so many writers coming up now in          Africa, but you notice that several of them, at least about 90 percent of them are in the        diaspora … so it’s as if the socio-economic situation in the country or in the continent …  seems         to be stifling ideas, and yet, writing is all about experiences, it’s all about what you feel… so,       do you think there is a way we can address these issues? Andeehm I’m looking at platforms, digital platforms that are with us now… young women are making use of social media       and all the likes of that to express themselves. So do you think there is a way we can go about aggregating ideas of young female writers and putting it on the digital platforms… In spite of            the fact that it’s very very slow here in Africa. If we want to start #metoo here, it will be dead on             arrival because. There will be no Nepa! Electricity will be off, you know and all that. Do you       think that we are good to go that way?


AGARY: I think there’s something going on right now in Abuja, in Lagos… you have people like Lola         Shoneyin. You have people like B.B Bakare Yusuf … eem … you have people who are putting                things   together … em, em, to keep things going. And so, it’s happening, probably not on the          scale that we would like, but I think there are people making an effort. So, we can only hope that              it grows… it grows and continues to attract more resources. ..eem … because, at the end of the                    day …  a lot of   thingscome to economics. So, I hope that they … they .. .have enough support to                 sustain and expand the things that they’re doing towards providing platforms for young women            writers and young writers.


RW:       What about young writers… female … African writers in the diaspora?


AGARY: I think they’re doing stuffs, especially Lola’s Ake Festival. I think she brings in people and it’s      huge gathering every year. I think I have attended a couple of them years ago when she used to               host it in Ife. But I’m not sure where they host it now, maybe in Lagos or wherever. I think they’re      making it these days (yea, sorry In Abeokuta). Yea, I think they’re making efforts to address some                of these issues.


RW: Finally, let me ask you…eem … The search for nomenclature, for the African gender Idea, you         know… it has shown that erm… some people have said … it’s like there’s lack of unity among                women in Africa. No one …  we’ve not been able to aggregate all ideas into a monolithic whole                … (I don‘t know) what do you have to say… because we have Womanism, African feminism, you               haveAfricana Feminism, Nego-Feminism … so many… None of them have been able to pull its        weight considerably. What do you have to say about this …  “unity among women”?


AGARY: I am not sure that I am into … em …  any of these nomenclature … You know, it’s not something             that is                 peculiar to women, and everytime, there is always some kind of discussion or attempt to              portray                 the disunity with women. Even in male issues, even when we were at the verge of    independence, fighting against colonialism… you had negritude and tigeritude… there’s always                going to be a     difference of opinions and difference of approach. it’s human, so it’s not    something peculiar to    women. But I think, regardless of what you call yourself, there are some               basic truths that we must agree on… regardless of whether you are…. Whatever you call                 yourself. There are just some basic things. One of them is equal access, equal right, equal             opportunity. And it doesn’t matter what you call yourself, I think we should try and stay away          from all of these things that… all of these nomenclatures (you call them) that try to divide us our sense of… fine, we all have common ground you know… on certain things, so find those places         where we have common grounds and let’s start with the…em … you know, we can fight the                 details latter. But if we are fighting before we even make any progress , we are not going to       get anywhere…I think it’s too early in our strugglesto be dividing ourselves into groups…                different warring groups. Ideological groups… at the end of the day the basic saying is; equal                access, equality, equity in justice and…


RW:       Good talk! Good talk! What do we expect from you in the ‘not too distant future’? Are we          expecting another book?


AGARY: I’ve been sitting on another book for a while now, trying to figure out what I want to do with    it, but it’s there, and because I’ve been sitting on it for so long, it keeps changing form. I don‘t             know when it‘s going to come out, but at some point, it will.


RW:       We are looking forward to it… Whatever happened to D.Talk Shop?


AGARY: Hmmm … well, it was an organization I was running  with my cousin, and after he passed away,             it kind of fell apart. So… it doesn’t really exist anymore.


RW:       Waoo! I’m sorry about that. And I’m sure a lot of young women must have been looking forward            to getting to work with that organization… soon, you probably would resuscitate it, at least for            the sake of younger ones that are coming up, that are aspiring.


AGARY: Well, the … the … the  organization or structure doesn’t exist anymore, but I’m still available as                a resource to            people, I’ve been available and I’ve helped a lot of other people in my personal capacity, not asan organization. So, I don’t think it’s a total loss because I still have all the     experience that I gained from running that organisation, that I’ve shared freely with anyone who                 has approached me to ask me questions about how to do certain things especially in publishing.     So, it’s not a total loss.


RW:       It would have been nice if we could expect you to have something like that even where you are              now, maybe something you can consider in the future.


AGARY: Maybe, but it would not be exactly the same thing. I mean … I am at a different point in my life,               and I have a different visions… you know, life happens and things change … you are just in a                different place … so, it may happen but it probably wouldn’t be exactly what it was… it’s just, you    know natural evolution of me and where my life is.


RW:       Hmm… well, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for this wonderful opportunity.


AGARY: No problem, thank you for reaching out to me.


RW:       I hope, someday soon, you’ll be in Nigeria, and when you are making that preparations, please                 have us in mind, because we would like to have you in Ile Ife.


AGARY: I will… I will… I will definitely… thank you so much.

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